Season 3 Episode 5 of Quiet the Diet Podcast with Michelle Shapiro, RD and Keri Glassman, RD

Managing Stress to Achieve Food Freedom with Keri Glassman

In this episode, Michelle sits down with Keri Glassman, a renowned dietitian, thought leader in the nutrition space. They delve into managing stress, embracing habit changes, and finding true food freedom. Keri shares her insights on the evolving landscape of health pillars, the challenges we face in prioritizing our well-being, and how embracing our uniqueness is essential in our quest for a healthier lifestyle.

In this episode, Michelle and Keri discuss:

• The importance of managing stress before focusing on meal plans and dietary changes
• Evolution and changing advice in the field of nutrition
• Insight on habit changes that actually provide long-term improvements 
• practical tips and strategies for managing stress and improving sleep
• The eight pillars of heath 
• Importance of eating empowered rather than relying on willpower

Keri’s Resources:

Personal Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/keriglassman/
Website: https://nutritiouslife.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nutritiouslifeofficial/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KeriGlassmanNutritiousLife
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/NLKeri
Twitter: https://twitter.com/nutritiouslife_

Podcast Links: 

Quiet the Diet Podcast Page
Follow the pod on IG 
Episode Page (with full transcript!) 

Work with Michelle: 

Work 1-on-1 with a functional Registered Dietitian at MSN LLC
8-Week Fitness & Nutrition Guide
Learn more about the practice

Free Resources: 

Get started with any of our free guides
Sign up for the Newsletter
Join our FREE membership community!

Connect with Michelle:

Follow the pod on IG
Follow Michelle on IG

Episode Transcript

Managing Stress to Achieve Food Freedom with Keri Glassman

Michelle [00:01:16]:

I am here today with not only a dear and darling friend, but what I would call nutrition royalty. We have Keri Glassman on the podcast today. I’m so happy you’re here, Keri.

Keri Glassman [00:01:33]:

I’m blushing. You’re so sweet. And I am so beyond thrilled and honored to be here on your incredible enlightening podcast and always amazing and fun and soul filling to spend time with you.

Michelle [00:01:52]:

I know. I feel exactly the same way. So much so that anytime we get into a conversation, we’re talking for like 20 hours. And I said, literally before we started, I said we need to walk around the Central Park Reservoir at least ten rounds to get through what we need.

Keri Glassman [00:02:05]:

To get through 100%. That sounds so fun, though. I know, that sounds so nice.

Michelle [00:02:10]:

We love like 05:00 a.m. Chats and walks. It’s like our favorite thing. It’s so true. You’re an extra super early person. Like I am.

Keri Glassman [00:02:19]:

I know, and I love it. I love that. When I am up early and I do text you, some people I worry about texting like it’s going to go off in their ear when they’re sleeping. And other people, I feel like, oh, no, they’re going to wake up to a text and be like, oh, what did you do that for? So I hold off, but when I respond to you or when I reach out to you early in the morning. I know you’re right on that same page, and I love that it’s not even a question.

Michelle [00:02:42]:

And we are going to talk about one of our favorite gadgets today, by the way, which is aura rings and how you and I proudly post our aura stats. I know we both have the gold one, too. It’s very cute and something we are going to talk today about tracking a little bit, too, because I think it can really be a tool for good or a triggering tool. So I think it’s really interesting and something that both of us find super helpful and use in our daily lives. So we have a lot to cover today. I think what I really want to hear first from you, Keri, is I just want to hear about your experience in kind of what you’ve seen since the day you became a dietitian and kind of how the nutrition world has evolved in that time. So start us with kind of what inspired you to be a dietitian in the first place and what the climate was like then and what it was like to go through schooling then.

Keri Glassman [00:03:30]:

Wow, there’s so much there because it’s been so long. I mean, you know, I’ve been a dietitian since 1999. No. Wow. I can’t even believe that. It’s actually crazy when I say that.

Michelle [00:03:47]:

24 freaking years.

Keri Glassman [00:03:48]:

That’s actually crazy when I say that out loud. Okay, so what inspired me to become a dietitian? So going back to college, I was actually a political science major, but I was a little obsessed with nutrition. I was just really fascinated with it. I was an athlete. I played two sports, actually, my freshman year, and then I just played lacrosse for all four years of college. And I was at Tufts, as you know, and there was a big nutrition program. And I did not take nutrition because I was scared of sciences. I didn’t think I was a science person. I thought I was an English history, political science person, writing papers. I just didn’t have that confidence in myself to take what everybody said was, these sciences are so hard. So I never took nutrition at Tufts. Anyway, fast forward. I went into not political science. I was working at Sports Illustrated. I’ll save that story for another time. And when I was there, Sports Illustrated at the time was owned by Time Inc. And we were comped all magazines we wanted. So Time Inc. Also owned health magazine. And when Health would come out each month, I would sit there at my desk as an ad sales assistant, and I would just ignore my work and devour the entire magazine. Now, at the know, I didn’t know a dietitian. I didn’t know anybody that was a nutrition coach. I hadn’t even considered it as a career anyway. So someone said to me at one point while I was going through the magazine, why aren’t you a nutritionist or something? Or you’re so into this, you love this. And it was like this light bulb went off. And I thought to myself, wait a minute, I hadn’t even thought about it. And I loved this even in college, but I didn’t really have the confidence to do it. Maybe I can do this. Anyway, fast forward. I took nutrition one at NYU while I was still working. Fast forward. So that was really where that first light bulb moment, wow, this can be a career. I’ve loved this for a really long time, actually. I think I’ve loved nutrition and wellness. I mean, it goes way back, even to childhood. But again, I’m trying to make this if I possibly can. You know, I’m not short winded. I’m trying to make this a short.

Michelle [00:06:05]:

Story, but there’s we want to hear every word.

Keri Glassman [00:06:08]:

There’s so much here. So anyway, so then I went back to school. So that’s how I really decided to go for it. But like I said, it goes back to even college when I was I’d said I played a couple of sports there and I was navigating social life, academics, sports. And it’s funny because I tell this story often. My friends were doing the typical things that college girls do at the time to stay skinny. They were drinking at the time. It was lots of Diet Coke, doing who knows what else, doing whatever kind of crazy diets, and they were fitting perfectly into their skinny jeans. Well, I knew that I wanted to fuel myself for the athletic field, and I wanted to perform on the athletic field, but I gained a whole lot of weight my freshman year with my habits changing in college. So I always say that was the time when and now I know I just went back, but it all goes together. But that was the time when really nutritious life was born, because even though it wasn’t many years later, after, I then had that light bulb moment at Sports Illustrated, and then I had that light bulb moment when I started my practice about how I wanted to build my practice. It really was in college when I was sort of experiencing living a not nutritious life and then also dabbling in a nutritious life and really learning the difference and understanding how all of these, what I now call the pillars of nutritious life impact one another. And of course, at the time I wasn’t calling it a nutritious life. I didn’t even know I was going to go into nutrition. But I always say that the seeds for my whole business and my whole career were really planted during that experience I had as a college athlete and trying to balance, fueling myself, but also wanting to fit into my skinny jeans.

Michelle [00:07:54]:

Absolutely. And I think it’s very interesting. Many of the dietitians I know, including myself, really went into nutrition for, I would say, one of two primary reasons, either for I would call it ulterior motives for selfish reasons. We wanted to learn the secrets of weight loss, or the secrets a lot of dietitian colleagues either had eating disorders and it was to heal their eating disorders, or, again, opposite wise, they wanted to learn how to learn weight loss or whatever that was. And then a lot of people who become dietitians are also just in the nature of service, I think, to others, and people who are very generous and really want to be healers. And that’s another group, too. And many of us fall into both categories. We want to learn it all right for you. What I think is so unique is that probably at the time, in the 1990s, which is what I would think is like the biggest diet culture, early 2000s, late 90s is like, diet culture era absolutely forever. You were different than other people, though, because you really weren’t chasing thinness. Your interest in nutrition came from this. I want to be a strong athlete.

Keri Glassman [00:09:04]:

I won’t put myself above that at all. I was certainly also chasing thinness. Right.

Michelle [00:09:09]:

And you mentioned that, too.

Keri Glassman [00:09:10]:

That was important, being transparent there absolutely no, I wasn’t trying to say that I was not chasing the thinness. I was chasing that thinness. It was just I wanted to do it in a healthy way so I could also perform. I wasn’t going to sacrifice being healthy and being able to be strong and fit. So it wasn’t about, okay, what do I have to do just to fit into those skinny jeans? It was, oh, I want to fit into those skinny jeans, and this doesn’t make sense. I’m the one that’s working out every day. I should be fitting into them, but how do I do it in a healthy way? And then it was also realizing that when I did sleep well, wow, okay. I was more motivated to eat well. And when I did get that great workout in, I slept better. And again, I didn’t put all of these things together so much, but it’s like I lived it at the time. So yeah, so I definitely don’t want to make it sound like I was above that. It was just about performing well.

Michelle [00:10:08]:

Yeah. Well, I do want to put you on a pedestal, but in this way, you being able to differentiate that I’m going to seek fitness while maintaining my health was very counter at the time, it was kind of like pick your battle, which I think did differentiate you, probably from other people. Like you said, you saw your friends adopting these, I’m assuming, low fat diets at the time.

Keri Glassman [00:10:33]:

There were lots of yogurt covered pretzels and fat free, the bulk candy free, but the gummy worms are fat free. We can have as many as we want. It was that era, which is crazy.

Michelle [00:10:47]:

Now, can we talk about the low fat era for a second? Were you learning about that in school was that, like, low fat diets? It was definitely like, cholesterol is super, not it. I mean, cholesterol was definitely a huge focus at the time, I’m sure, and you should be limiting cholesterol to less than 200 milligrams per day or whatever. There was definitely that. Tell me about that, though.

Keri Glassman [00:11:06]:

Yeah, during those college years, everything was, yes, fat free, low calorie, low fat. By the time I went to NYU for my masters, we weren’t necessarily learning low fat. We were learning low fat. Yes, heart healthy for a heart healthy diet, et cetera. But we weren’t learning that all fat was bad. I mean, right away. And right away, when I started my practice, I was a big believer in fat is your friend, fat is your friend. What I will say has changed dramatically. And it’s funny, I was actually just thinking about this with the first book I wrote. I’ll tell you that in a moment. What has changed dramatically is how we view saturated fat. And that it was definitely more like there are good, healthy fats for you, like these monounsaturated fats, but all saturated fat is bad for you. And there was no room for, hey, grass fed butter and coconut oil, which, by the way, I know some people still don’t agree with. But again, that’s another conversation. So it’s funny, I had pulled out my first book can I go on a tangent here?

Michelle [00:12:14]:

Yes, please. This is a tangent friendly podcast. Please go on all tangents.

Keri Glassman [00:12:18]:

So I pulled out my first book, which came out in 2006, which is crazy. It was called the snack factor diet. And there is a lot of goodness in that book that I would still stand by today. And of course, there’s also a lot in there that has changed dramatically and makes me cringe when I read it. But I think the fact, first of all, that I cringe when I read it and I’m not standing by it, and I know that the world has changed and a lot of new research has come out is a good thing. Right. We have to change with the times. But one thing in particular that I think is a really good example of taking new science and utilizing it and changing the way you give advice, which is something we all need to do in this field. As you know, it’s only just over 100 years old. So one of the snacks in there is, and there’s multiple examples of it, is fat free Greek yogurt and nuts, a serving of nuts. Now, the fat free yogurt was obviously in there for the protein and bonus calcium, and the nuts were in there for the healthy fat and bonus fiber and antioxidants. Right. A great snack. And the thought was, well, you don’t need to get the fat from that yogurt. You can just get the protein from the yogurt, and you can just get the fat from the nuts. We know now that not only full fat yogurt, but even if you just go for low fat yogurt, it’s going to be a better choice. Even if you have a little bit less of it, you’re going to be more satisfied. There’s benefits to some of that saturated fat within a whole food diet. So that’s just an example of something that I’ve absolutely changed my opinion on. But not only have I changed my opinion, the world has changed, right? I think the way we view fat in general has changed dramatically. And at the time, I would say when I did start my practice, there were many people that weren’t. I was probably like I said, I always used to say fat or still say fat is your friend. But I was saying that right from the beginning, but I was probably saying healthy monounsaturated fats are your friend. I wasn’t saying and there’s even room for some of these saturated fats and mirstic acid and all of this. I wasn’t getting into that at the time, but I guess that’s just an example when you ask how things changed. As an example back, I would say.

Michelle [00:14:31]:

In the times that we’re talking about, earlier 2000s, it was a lot of nutritionism, which is that there’s one specific nutrient that influences all other aspects of health. And I think the belief in dietitians, even when I was in school, was that dietitians are the only nutrition experts, and we hung our hats a lot on nutrition science is pretty solid, and it’s also probably the most important thing in the world. And we were going up against at the time, and this was talked about in school, like doctors who don’t believe that nutrition is important a little bit. Okay, let’s take a pause.

Keri Glassman [00:15:09]:

Are we good?

Michelle [00:15:10]:

Yeah, I can see you. Can you see me okay?

Keri Glassman [00:15:12]:

Yeah, but we sound like you froze a little bit.

Michelle [00:15:14]:

If that happens, by the way, oftentimes the recording will still sound the same, but if you can’t hear me, you have to tell me what I said.

Keri Glassman [00:15:21]:

I did just miss probably the last couple of seconds of what you were asking.

Michelle [00:15:25]:

Yeah, it’s completely fine. Yeah. When I was in school, especially, we were taught really that nutrition is nutrition science is solid, it’s verified. And the more that I learned about nutrition, I’m like, oh, my God, this is really subjective. It really changes from person to person. And there are some things that I think we’ve kind of come back to our roots of scientific understanding all the way back to traditional medicine, which is just that real food is always better than not real food. Like these very simple truths that were not apparent to us. We thought if we can modify something, we can kind of be like super extra able or capable. But now we’re realizing that the closer we get to whole, the better off we probably are, which seems so simple and obvious now, but at the time we thought the kind of newer and more cutting edge stuff was probably better, and that was the science that we were uncovering. Why do you think it takes so long for nutrition to kind of catch up as a field? And why do you think it took us so long to catch up to these very obvious things that we now know, which is that eating real whole foods is going to do better things biologically in your body than highly processed ones?

Keri Glassman [00:16:36]:

Yeah, that’s a really good question. And it’s so interesting. When I look back on that time, it was mostly diet and exercise, diet and exercise. And that was the focus. And as you know, I didn’t want to start my practice that way. And again, part of that goes back to that experience in college. And I’m kind of going again on a tangent here, and I’m going to get to what I’m going to get remind me of this question if I go off too far, but it’s reminding.

Michelle [00:17:04]:

Me of go wherever you want to go.

Keri Glassman [00:17:06]:

When I started my practice, I had said, and I think you probably have maybe even showed you, that that first logo from my business had a little apple for food, but with a little arrow to a bed for sleep, with a little arrow to a drop of water for hydration, with a little arrow to a brain for stress and so on. Because I didn’t want to just talk about diet and exercise. I knew that what I now call all these other pillars of nutritious life affected each other behaviorally and physiologically, and they all work together. And you couldn’t just put some on a diet and not address those other things because, yeah, maybe it would work for a couple of people, and maybe it would work for a couple of people for a very short period of time, but it wouldn’t work for the long term. It wouldn’t be as effective, it wouldn’t help their overall health as much, and you absolutely weren’t going to be able to help as many people, and it wouldn’t be as enjoyable. Right. It was more about deprivation. So in terms of what you just asked, why was it like that and how has it changed? I think the first, if I’m remembering correctly and you might know the answer to this, I think the first diet book was written in 1588 or something like that, right?

Michelle [00:18:20]:

It wasn’t it the 16 hundreds and hundreds of years ago.

Keri Glassman [00:18:23]:

Yeah, right. So I’m pretty sure that’s when the first diet book was written. And so people have been talking about dieting, and then I think it was the 16 hundreds when it was more focused actually on weight loss. And then, I mean, you know, you’ve looked at those ads probably from years and years and years ago, right? And there’s even ads when you go back I looked at some ad. And this must have been from maybe it was the I don’t know if it was the 70s or the 80s, but it was flat out. Girls don’t eat. If you want to, like, reduce your eating, if you want to go on the beach this summer. I mean, it’s some line that it’s almost exactly that it’s crazy when you think about what ads used to be. And so how has it changed so much? I think one, we didn’t have as much science, we didn’t have as much information. Right? So I think when you looked at when people did certain things, quick Fix type things, and they lost weight, people still want even back then, people wanted that quick fix. They didn’t look at the big picture of, well, what was going to happen later on? What’s going to be the long term health consequences, right? So there wasn’t as much information. And when people saw Quick Fixes, I think that people jumped on that and companies jumped on that, and it got into our culture. And then I think we woke up because we saw how quick Fixes fad diets don’t work and how it leads to not only gaining more weight back, but it leads to really unhealthy outcomes and long term horrible conditions. I think that that’s part of it. I also think that there’s just an overall greater interest in health right now and whether that’s a trend. I mean, everybody always wants to be healthy, right? And people want to be thin, right? They do. But I think there is this greater interest right now in health and wellness. It’s having a moment. I don’t think it’s ever going to go away because people again, people have to eat. People want to eat. People want to be healthy, people want to be thin, people want to look good. I mean, that’s never going to go away, right? I think it’s just that as we get smarter and learn more and there’s more research and we’ve more years of experience of seeing what actually works in the long term, we’re in a somewhat better position. But that’s not to say, I mean, as you know, things are clearly not perfect right now.

Michelle [00:20:53]:

No. There’s new feds, there’s new there’s new diet camps every single day. I think also we’ve reached an inflection point where now the majority of people are sick. And that was absolutely not the case 20 years ago. It just wasn’t the case 20 years ago. So I think many people are seeking answers for these things and have realized that not only have the past kind of nutrition answers not supported them, but could have actually dysregulated them even more.

Keri Glassman [00:21:25]:

Absolutely. And that’s such a great point. And that’s why I think also with people being sicker, right, with our world being a sicker place, people are looking for answers that aren’t just about the way they look. They’re looking for answers to feel better and to live longer and to live longer with a better quality of life.

Michelle [00:21:49]:

One of my cutest, longest term clients who we’ve worked together five years yesterday, she said to me, she said, I’m not doing chronic illness anymore, I’m doing longevity now. She’s like, I have chronic illnesses, they’re in my body, I get it. But my focus is actually longevity now. And I’m like I love that. And I think longevity amazing become a trend and I love that. I actually think it’s a great trend and it’s a hopeful trend. So to also kind of know anytime I talk about the fact that there’s like millions of people who are suffering from chronic illness, I get very down. But then to flip us in that very positive direction too. How confident are you now, Keri, in the eight pillars of health that we’re going to talk about and in the direction we’re going in? Do you feel more confident now than ever that people can turn their own health around when they focus on their holistic health?

Keri Glassman [00:22:41]:

So I do, and I’m also concerned about some things, so I’ll say that.

Michelle [00:22:46]:

Okay, tell me both.

Keri Glassman [00:22:47]:

I do feel extremely confident that people are more aware about how their overall lifestyle, their relationships, their past trauma, their stress, like how all of these things affect their health. And I’m really confident that they’re not only aware of it, but more and more people are putting the work into practice to improve those areas of their life. And like I said, when I talked about, I described the first logo of my business, people used to look at me like I had four heads. They would come in and they’d say, aren’t you a dietitian? Aren’t you just going to give me a meal plan?

Michelle [00:23:22]:

Stay in your lane, Keri.

Keri Glassman [00:23:23]:

Exactly. And I was like, no I’m not, I’m not going to give you a meal plan until you work on your stress because it’s not going to do anything unless you work on your stress. Right? And it’s going to be easier to follow when you manage your stress. And that’s another thing that actually has changed. Going back to one of your initial questions from 20 years ago, is that there is a much greater, I’d say, interest. And people are embracing all of these different, again, what I call these pillars. People are embracing them, people are interested in it. People know now, even if they just know a little bit, they know that sleep is important. They know that managing stress is important. So that, I think is a huge shift as well. And that I’m really excited about and that I’m super confident in that people are going to be able to improve not only their weight, but their long term health by incorporating habit changes here. So that is incredible and I am really confident about that. And that makes me very happy. The thing that’s concerning to me is that our world, right now is set up in a way that really goes against those pillars, even more so than they did 20 years ago and 40 years ago. So people are more aware of the pillars. People are more embracing of them. There are lots and lots of tools, from apps to trackers, like, we’re going to talk about there’s more coaches out there, there’s lots of tools out there. But what worries me is that we know burnout is a huge thing right now, and a lot of that is because of just people are going 24 hours a day. You’ve got a phone, you can be on call for work 24 hours a day. There’s burnout culture. People are sicker than ever. Like you said. I think that our food system is getting worse and worse. There are better options for packaged foods. And, I mean, we’re all going to eat a certain amount of processed we all have to have a certain amount of processed foods, right? It’s the ultra processed foods we have to worry about and obviously reduce even processed foods. But our food system is a disaster right now compared to what it was again, 2040, 50, 60 years ago. It’s a lot worse. So even all of the toxins in our environment, the obesity, so we’re fighting, even when we’re managing our stress and all that, there’s more obesity, there’s more toxins. Our food isn’t as good quality. So there’s things we’re fighting against. We’re fighting against working, we’re fighting against blue light on our phones. You know what I mean? There’s a lot of things that we’re fighting against now that we didn’t years ago, even though we have more tools and there’s more awareness. So that’s the concerning part to me.

Michelle [00:26:17]:

I just love how you’re framing this, too, and this conversation I always had with my parents when I was younger. And a lot of my friends have some level of chronic illness, and a lot of people my age have some level of chronic illness. And my parents would always say, I don’t get it. Why is everyone your age sick? Are they complaining more? Are they less resilient? And I’m like, no, we’re like the most resilient group of people you’ll ever meet, because the barriers to being healthy are so much grander. That my dad always says to me, he’s like, I ate 15 bags of potato chips when I was a kid, and I was fine, basically, and not in a judgmental way, but I was like, yeah, because that one bag of potato chips then versus one bag of potato chips now. I don’t care. I’m not even talking about the portions. I’m not talking about anything like that. Literally. Completely different chemicals and completely different food. So we grew up eating food that was we basically were in a major experiment in the past 20 or so years to see what happens to the human body when you throw toxic chemicals into every single component of. Food, everything. And we’re kind of like we failed the experiment. I mean, we won the experiment because whatever could have happened, happened. So we are dealing with now, and this is not to scare people, but to say how very real these components of food are. But it is like you’re saying for you to be healthy now, you got to fight a little bit harder. And that’s really hard because financially, it’s one of the hardest times we’ve ever had in the entire world. Stress wise, it’s one of the hardest times. And then, just like you said, even the blue light from our phone, even those little things, the environment we’re living in, environmental toxins is not really conducive for health. So you almost have to be a little bit weird and a little bit of a freak, which is my type of people anyway. I’m here for the freaks. It’s not even a question.

Keri Glassman [00:28:06]:

Totally.

Michelle [00:28:07]:

But I think you have to be a little bit of a freak to stay or get healthy right now. And it doesn’t mean you have to be hyper vigilant, but it means you have to do things in a way that is not really of the system.

Keri Glassman [00:28:20]:

Absolutely. When you brought up environment toxins, too, I was thinking even our water system and even having I don’t know if you have but I have a filter in my shower because it’s like and I was talking about with a friend and she said, wait, now I have to worry about the water filter in my shower. I said, you don’t have to worry, but there are things you can do. And think about it. If there’s toxins, if there’s things that you don’t want to drink, you don’t want them going on your skin either, right? So it just makes sense. You don’t have to get scared about it, but there’s things you can do. But again, you brought up like you have to almost be a little bit of a freak. And that also makes me think about something that which is another thing that’s I would say, not another thing, but something that is bothering me a little bit in the world of nutrition and social media right now. And I think we’ve had this conversation, but I don’t love how now simply being healthy is looked at as, oh, you’re promoting diet culture, right? Like doing things that make you feel good and, you know, will increase your longevity and prevent disease. And not doing it to a point of sacrificing, going out in public or eating in a restaurant or making you stressed, but doing these little things. There’s this sort of opposition out there in the world of social media from and many RDS too, they’re like, that is diet culture. You don’t have to do that. That is just promoting diet culture and all that. I’m like, no, it’s not. Eating healthy is not promoting diet culture. Eating healthy is promoting being healthy is what we should all be doing. And again, that’s sort of almost like minimizing what I’m trying to say. But I know you’re with me here, but it really bothers me in our.

Michelle [00:30:11]:

Social media sphere, it is the premise of the Quiet the diet podcast. It bothers me so much, I made a damn podcast about it. So, yes, it is definitely if people are experiencing chronic illness, the likelihood that they can access food freedom as a priority or eat whatever they want to not really eat whatever they want eat, even intuitively as their first line of defense for their health, the likelihood of that is very low. They’re probably going to have to prioritize some pretty radical life or health solutions if they want radical changes in their symptoms. And again, I’m talking about a person who might be having diarrhea 25 times a day. Food freedom might not be a priority if they can’t go to work. And I think that, like you said, there’s been this very rational, knee jerk reaction to diet culture, which you and I both are so adamantly against. We’re down with it. We completely understand. Yes, and we agree. And that is a huge part of both of our messages and has always been a huge part of your message for 24 years has been a part of your message as much as was societally appropriate. Like, everyone still has to live and exist in society, and that’s a rational part of the conversation and the science we have available. But when it goes kind of to the next extreme is when I think people really don’t feel like we do, that you have to be a freak when they say being a freak is an eating disorder. When we start categorizing every healthy action as eating disorder. To me, that just shows that there’s a Dysregulation in their nervous system, a Dysregulation in their perception of threat in their environment, because it shouldn’t feel threatening to see someone else drinking lemon water to help boost up their stomach acid a little bit and help digestion if someone feels threatened by someone else doing something healthy, that has more to do with their nervous system and their safety cues.

Keri Glassman [00:32:06]:

Wow. So beautifully said. I love that sometimes I see people react to things where someone’s showing a salad for lunch and they’re just showing a delicious salad with loads of vegetables and there’s a comment that’s something like you’re telling people that they can’t have starches. No, I’m just eating greens because I want to get greens and because I like them. And guess what? They’re also good for me and I feel good doing it. Right. The eye there wasn’t even not even saying me. I’m not even saying people comment like that so much to me. I see it, though, out there on different people’s social. And like you said, it’s a reaction that’s not helping anyone.

Michelle [00:32:56]:

No, it’s they’re saying, this is my gut reaction to this, but your gut reaction to something has much more to do with you than it does for other people. And you said the next most important point, which is when we’re putting out nutrition information, my question always is, who is this helping? Who does it help to say, so good, like drinking lemon water is diet culture. Who does that help? And I’ve seen even things like OOH, if you use castor oil, that’s diet culture. I’m like, Listen, castor oil has been used for thousands of years for many different medicinal properties. And then it also gets into the category of which is very I feel that it can be extremely narrow minded and extremely Western to view things as only what you recognize. Right? So if I recognize this, yes, it is safe. If I do not recognize this, it is in a bucket of unslafed sash. Diet culture.

Keri Glassman [00:33:49]:

Oh, my gosh, this is so good. I love what you’re saying right here, because as I was thinking about doing this podcast with you today, and I was thinking about one thing you mentioned was to think a little bit about where was nutrition when you started? Where do you want to see the world of nutrition going? And one thing I was thinking about was I want to see it going in a place where we’re all a little more open minded because, yes, I am research based. You are research based. We love the science. We love the evidence. But there are so many things out there that just haven’t been maybe researched in the same way as something else because it hasn’t been funded right. But they’re not harmful. They’re probably really helpful. They’ve been practiced for hundreds, if not thousands of years. And if it’s not harmful and it works for someone, just because there isn’t this perfect randomized controlled trial on it does not mean that there isn’t perhaps a time and place. And I am someone that loves a good RCT. I love the research. I love it, and we’re going to use that research. But there’s times and places for things. And that’s where I think, again, there are many dietitians out there, too, that love to squash. Something like that has not been proven. And it’s like, okay, yeah, but it’s worked for thousands of years. It’s not hurtful. And again, it might not be right for some people, but there are many people that it may be right for. So there has to be this just open mindedness. And I always feel like nutritious life. We’re evidence based, we’re research. We love that research, but we always keep an open mind for possibilities.

Michelle [00:35:32]:

And we had an episode in season one with Dr. Bhaswadi Bhattacharya, who is a medical doctor and also an ayurvedic professional, and she’s also a pharmacologist. She’s like one of the most amazing people in the entire world. And what she said was, the rigor of science is actually higher in ayurveda so basically you need to not just prove something in a lab one time, you need to prove it millions of times over thousands of years and it needs to be verified. And the scientific methods that they use are actually with much higher validity and rigor than the ones we use here. So it’s like you’re saying the narrow mindedness is that if I don’t have an RCT, which is our country’s view of what is valid, then it is not valid. And the other really important piece of what you said is that if it’s low risk, why not? Right? Low risk, low cost, possibly effective. What’s the worst that happens? You drink some lemon water and you don’t feel better. I think that the most dangerous thing we can do in the nutrition world is eliminate hope from people. And when you say to people, don’t try anything because it’s not proven, you’re narrowing their toolbox. You’re narrowing the ability to believe there’s possibility, which is what’s going to bring us also into this eight pillars of health conversation. I love so much that you have and utilize this in nutritious life because it lets people know food is one incredibly important pillar of health. But if you can’t make those food changes, there’s a million other places you can look to help with your health and it all can come together.

Keri Glassman [00:37:07]:

Absolutely. And I often don’t start there with people. I would often say to people, we’re not even going to talk about food. We’re not even going to change one thing in your diet until we manage your stress. We’re going to give you a few tips for stress this week and a few tips for improving your sleep and we’re going to just work on those couple of things. And I often say to people from there, not only are you probably going to start metabolizing your food better, not only are you going to probably start feeling better, but then there’s also going to be that your behavior will start to change and you’ll probably want to eat better. But even if you didn’t change, even if you didn’t do that part yet, the first part is physiologically, your body’s starting to change and you will be metabolizing your food even better. So let’s just start with those two things. And by starting with those and feeling better before someone even tries to change their diet, first of all, you take away the whole thing. That the whole attitude of I have to go on a diet or I’ve got to follow something. Right now you’ve stripped that away. So there’s this really huge empowerment that happens and there’s this natural subconscious motivation that happens because someone starts to feel better. And then you get into the and I love getting into all this. You get into the science of, well wait, why is that happening now? I actually drink my water and I’ve got some minerals and electrolytes in there and I feel better. I’m more energetic in the afternoon, and you explain the why. And then all of a sudden, they’re like, Why do I feel just better, though a little calmer? Well, when you weren’t dehydrated, guess what? Your cortisol your stress hormone was going up, and just from being not properly hydrated. And when you’re not properly hydrated, something as simple that people think of as so simple, they hear, drink your eight cups of water a day, and it’s like, in one ear, out the other. It doesn’t really mean that much to them. But when you can explain what is actually going on, when you’re properly hydrated and I’m just using this pillar as an example, and you explain how, no, you’re actually affecting your stress hormone, and that’s just one thing that’s affected, but you’re affecting your stress hormone, and guess what? You’re at greater risk for depression. Depression from not being properly hydrated. And you get into that, and it’s powerful for people. But it’s again, also, like you said and I love how you put it that way, it’s so hopeful. It’s hopeful because there’s so many other things you can address if you just can’t address the food. And I say there’s many times when, don’t even worry about your food. Focus on these other pillars, and you can get to the food next. But you’re keeping yourself in a good rhythm. You’re keeping yourself consistent just by maybe it’s taking those supplements consistently, staying properly hydrated, doing a meditation each morning, and focusing on your sleep. You might be healthier than you ever were when you were on some crazy restrictive diet, even if it was a healthy even if you’re eating healthy foods.

Michelle [00:39:59]:

Totally. I think when people think about motivation, they think, I need to get willpower, or I need to force myself to want to do something. But the real way to motivate yourself is to feel good enough to allow your body to tell you it’s ready for something. So I’ll often see this, and I know you do, Keri, and have with all of your clients and your staff clients that I’ll have a client who will say, like, I really don’t want to talk about food. I’m triggered by it. I’m not ready to talk about it. Great, okay. It’s off the table for now. Then we’ll focus on some other things, like you said, maybe sleep, maybe stress. And then three weeks later, they’ll come to me and be like, can we actually talk about food now?

Keri Glassman [00:40:35]:

Yes.

Michelle [00:40:36]:

Your body will tell you when it’s ready. You can’t really force your brain to be motivated or ready to do something, but what you can do is consistently respect your body. And then your body kind of naturally gets to that point where it’s ready. So I think the action is in the small things you can do, not in forcing yourself to do something, because it’s just super ineffective. It just doesn’t really work. And your body also knows when the jig is up and knows when you’re going to do something. This study found that people who thought they were going on a more restrictive diet actually metabolized the calories differently and had different cravings as a result, eating the same foods as a controlled group. So again, if you’re telling your body, I’m going to slam you into the ground and I’m going to torment you, it will create some serious biological differences versus saying, let’s do these tiny things that will make us feel better. Or sometimes just doing things and you’re not sure how it’s going to make you feel, but you know it’s good. Kind of just do them and then see what the result is yourself.

Keri Glassman [00:41:45]:

Well, it’s that your body’s listening to your mind, right? Your body’s listening. So that study that you just brought up is exactly that your body’s going to listen. And so that’s also why when I talk about the food pillar, the food pillar of Nutritious Life is eat empowered. Because when you eat from a place of willpower, which is I mean, you know how I feel about willpower, and I’ve written so much on this. I am not a fan of willpower. All it does is it’s negative energy, it increases your stress levels. I mean, there are so many reasons. Willpower you just have this wrestling match in your head. It’s a terrible mindset, like trying to use willpower. So, you know, I am not a fan of willpower, but eating empowered is the exact opposite of willpower. And it’s really shifting that mindset to naturally want to put good foods in your body. But it could be for any of the pillars, right? So when you eat from a place of I can’t wait to enjoy those blueberries. And I know they’re good for my skin and I love the taste of them. Like when you just eat from that place of they’re good for me and they’re good for my and again, I might be like geeking out a little bit here and exaggerating the point, but you know what I’m saying? When they’re good for my brain, I’m actually doing something good for my cognition and focus. And guess what? A byproduct might be weight loss. But I want those. I can’t wait to put them into my body and feel good. Like when you can change that. And I always tell people that does not happen overnight. And for someone that is in a very real starting place, you’re not going to feel that way right away. And I don’t expect people to just flip that switch in 1 second. It’s not like that. It’s like you got to move that switch a little. It takes a while to get there. It’s not just like a boom, but when you get there and you start doing it and you do it a little by little and you get over that hump. That’s not to say that you’re never just going to crave whatever else. The chocolate chip cookie, however you do end up like you said, your body gets there on its own. It is doing these things because it wants to and it’s ready. And it’s not coming from a place of willpower, it’s coming from a place of empowerment.

Michelle [00:43:46]:

And you could even start off by saying I’m going to eat these stupid blueberries every stupid day and fine, I’m going to eat them. And then it might turn into I need and want my daily blueberries. But you can start by saying I’m going to eat these stupid blueberries. I don’t even know why I’m eating these stupid blueberries. Whatever, I’ll eat them. And then it could turn into and transform as every single day your body learns the safety of that ritual, what your body can receive from that ritual. So I think that just creating those habits which are really easier said than done. Because again, we can feel so dysregulated new things can feel scary. There’s a million reasons why someone might not feel ready to make changes, but the tiniest changes that you’re not even 100% sure why they’re good for you. You just know education wise, all right, these are good for you. And we have a viewpoint of thinking of things which is there’s two things necessary for change. Either you need to feel bad enough or you need to have enough education. So either you can go either direction, either you can let yourself feel so bad that you’re like I’m desperate and I will do anything. And that’s when you start going on WebMD, reddit all these places and searching for answers like why do I feel weird every day at 06:00 a.m. Whatever that moment is for you and that’s what empowers people. Or you can just learn and then experiment and see if certain things make you feel better or don’t. And really that takes a lot of inventorying and a lot of checking in with yourself to see, is this working? Why is this so hard? Is this getting easier to do? Like any of those eight pillars? So also, Keri, just run us through the eight pillars by the way, because now I have sleep, stress, nutrition and hydration.

Keri Glassman [00:45:23]:

Yep. Okay, so we have oh, sorry, I just lost you for one SEC. Okay, sorry. Are you there? Okay, yeah, you’re there. Sorry, I lost you for 1 second. Okay, so we have Drink Up, Eat Empowered, Live Consciously which is not only your world and your actual world. Like keeping your refrigerator organized for example, has benefits. Your desk area has been organized, has benefits. But also the world at large and those environmental toxins like we talked about, love more, which is the relationship and community pillar. Nurturing yourself which is really that self care pillar. Sleep deep, stress less and sweat often. So those are the pillars. And one thing I just want to go back to one thing you said about that. You mentioned lemon water a couple of times and it made me think. And then just with what you were just talking about, it made me think, like something like that, even. I always talk about having that glass of water with lemon in the morning. Is there’s a psychological benefit of just you’re saying to yourself, I’m going to have a healthy day today? It’s like there’s this like I’m having a healthy day. I’m doing something good for me. And sometimes that’s just a place to start with someone. That’s It. That’s the one change. That’s the one thing someone can do. So what you were just talking about just reminded me of that?

Michelle [00:46:41]:

I wanted to mention that I love that so much. And what you’re saying even deeper than that is that the actions you take are important. But the way that those actions communicate with you is also really important. So just saying. You know what? I’m drinking this lemon water. Maybe the acid in the lemon water isn’t enough to heal all of your digestion, which I’m sure it’s not. But just saying. Hey, I’m taking care of you today. Stomach. I’m taking care of you, and I’m giving you some fighting juice to be able to break things down today that in and of itself can actually help your body to release more stomach acid. So because our vagus nerve is such a direct line of communication between our brain and our gut, what we’re doing and the actions we’re taking are just as important. And let’s pull in that other piece of the conversation we had before, too. The difference between saying I’m not going to drink lemon water because it’s not scientifically proven, versus let me grab a cup of lemon water and just take this and see if it helps me a little bit. You can feel the difference in that type of communication with your body. Even just me saying it. My stomach did not like the first one, I’ll tell you that.

Keri Glassman [00:47:48]:

And even on another level, again, even on that subconscious level of the, oh, I have my lemon water and you go to work. And instead of picking up the bacon, egg and cheese on a roll from the deli, that same person might decide to scramble eggs really quickly before they leave for work. Right? And you know this, but there’s so many different behaviors that come from just initiating one or two. And again. They might come from a physiological place, they might come from a behavioral place, but they happen. And being really kind to yourself throughout that process and letting it happen and knowing and also working with a good right, working with someone. And I know you do such an incredible job with your clients, but I imagine that you know where to start with them. You’re Not Going to bring up the eating empowered side of it. When someone’s really not ready to make changes there, you’re going to start with one change that you think will be the easiest and just the easiest to grasp hold of for someone. And that’s a really important thing, too.

Michelle [00:49:01]:

Absolutely. And I had a client who the initial package they did was like a three month plan, and we were on month three of the three month plan, and they said lovingly, hey, Michelle, do you think we could start talking about food now? I’m like, all right, fine. You have a session left in your package we can talk about. But of course, if someone is eager to talk about food, it’s their choice. But it just so happens that to understand our nutrition habits, we have to understand the playing field and the environment with which the food’s going in first. Before I know what’s going to work with someone’s body, they have to know what works with their body and they also have to know what’s going on. The food doesn’t just get thrown in and then poof, it goes away. There’s like 100 different processes that happen along the way. So I’m going to want to know organ wide what’s happening during that time.

Keri Glassman [00:49:47]:

Absolutely.

Michelle [00:49:47]:

And food can feel like, you know, so emotional for people. It’s often one of the least safe places to start on a nutrition journey, funny enough.

Keri Glassman [00:49:55]:

Totally agree.

Michelle [00:49:57]:

Yeah, I know this is very ingrained in the work that you do. So, Keri, would you say your recommendations for people, let’s say they don’t even want to work with a practitioner, they’re just listening from home would be to maybe start with just one or two of those things, even outside of the.

Keri Glassman [00:50:11]:

Nutrition pillar, if they don’t feel safe 100%. And it could even start with organizing your closet. Literally, it could start with clean out your closet for most people. Some people like to be organized more than others, but there’s going to be this feeling of accomplishment. You’re going to feel a little bit lighter, even mentally less distracted. You might lower your stress levels when you go to open to go into your closet in the morning and to get dressed. And that sounds like a really silly, ridiculous one I’m throwing out there, but I’m purposely putting something out there that is so real, that is so far from the nutrition side of things. Because even sometimes, starting there, if you’re feeling chaotic and you’re feeling super stressed and you’re feeling out of control with your food, sometimes just trying to say, okay, I’m going to eat my three eggs every single morning and have my kale salad with salmon every day. But it takes you longer to get dressed in the morning and you feel scattered and you feel stressed and you’re anxious, you’re not going to end up doing that. So by putting a few things into place that can calm your environment, that’s the live consciously pillar. If you do that, that might be the first step for you. You can go really slow and then it might be getting yourself a 32 ounce water bottle and filling it twice, perhaps adding some electrolytes, but getting in, getting in that hydration to start. If you’re not drinking any water, maybe you’re drinking diet soda and you swap the diet soda for water and you don’t even get to the 64oz, which by the way, the 64 ounce thing is a myth. I just feel like I have to say that for listeners. I know you know that.

Michelle [00:51:51]:

Thank you.

Keri Glassman [00:51:51]:

But it is a place to start for many people and it is a good goal for many people. Many people need a little more and then many people need less. You also need proper electrolyte balance to even be properly hydrated. But it is a place to start for people. So I just wanted to say that. But maybe you do that next and then perhaps or perhaps you start with a meditation and that just starts your whole day a little bit calmer. You then start to make better choices. So there’s many things you can do before you dive into food and oftentimes getting a few of those other ducks in a row. And you don’t have to perfect them. None of your pillars will be perfect. But getting a few of those pillars or ducks in a row, in a row to begin with will improve just your ability to be consistent, as consistent as possible. Again, you never have to be perfect with any of them when you do attack the food pillar.

Michelle [00:52:44]:

And we know also that chemically solving one problem A, leaves space open in your brain, but also gives you confidence to tackle other problems. So this has been proven time and time again that if you’re able to accomplish something, even if it’s the tiniest thing, you can mark something off a checklist, it leaves you open to be able to do more things. This is so interesting. I’ve never spoken about this on a podcast, but I find that for my clients, one of the most important things that we do to help subconsciously improve their health is just cleaning out their fridge. When you have so much stuff in your fridge that you’re not eating. I speak to this a little bit too, but I know for my clients, just cleaning out your fridge and only having the food there that you want and it doesn’t have to be only the healthiest food, food that you’re actually going to eat. The clutter of that and it seems like, again, the action and intention behind it matters as much as the action itself. But every single time you open that fridge, your food’s right there. It’s just like when you have a cluttered fridge, it really leaves you with so many tabs open on that computer and also so much dissatisfaction of all. The foods you should be eating that you actually don’t want to eat.

Keri Glassman [00:53:56]:

Oh, absolutely. And I’ve talked about this a lot. How if you go to the store and let’s say you buy that red pepper and it’s in that green bag and it’s shoved in the back, and you open up your fridge and you see some leftover Chinese food, and you see maybe an old slice of pizza. You see half of a sandwich left over or something. And you see all these other things and it’s cluttered and whatever. You’re not going for that pepper. And guess what? A few days later, it’ll probably be slimy in there. But if you’ve cleaned out all the other stuff and you have that and you take the 30 seconds or less than a minute, let’s say I’ll give you a minute to slice the pepper. You take a minute to slice the pepper and you put it in a nice glass jar in your fridge. You open it up and it’s like, literally, I always say, you open that fridge and it’s like the birds are chirping. You hear the birds chirping, like and you want to grab you want to grab that red pepper and then you feel good doing that, right. So I’m totally with you there with the fridge. I love a good fridge. Clean out every once in a while.

Michelle [00:54:55]:

And starting from scratch, the kind of opposite of willpower is really setting up your environment for success. And you’re not only setting up your environment, you’re setting up your brain.

Keri Glassman [00:55:06]:

Yes.

Michelle [00:55:07]:

And that’s what’s so important about all of these things. Like, how are you helping your brain to help you? We can’t force our brains to do stuff. We can pave the way for our brains to be clear enough and safe enough to let us engage in these activities. We’re not smarter than our brains. We can’t over willpower our brains.

Keri Glassman [00:55:24]:

Of course.

Michelle [00:55:25]:

But creating space, I think, and clarity is just so essential for all of the eight pillars.

Keri Glassman [00:55:30]:

Oh, absolutely, right, of course. So even if you open up that fridge and you’re craving that leftover pizza, even if it’s there, but you also have those peppers already cut up, guess what? You’ll probably end up still going for those peppers. And once in a while you might go for that pizza that’s still there, and that’s okay too. But you’re setting yourself up for success, like you just said, and you’ve got to do it all. You have to give yourself a fighting chance. You’re not going to give yourself the chance to make those choices and to make those choices so much easier. Right. And to do it from a place of not willpower, right, but from a place of feeling good. You have to set yourself up for success, like you just said. I love that.

Michelle [00:56:11]:

And really just eliminating that, like you said, the decision fatigue for yourself, because I think that’s so many people struggle with is, okay, Keri michelle, you’re giving me eight pillars of health that I have to focus on. Not at all. Pick one or two tiny things from each and then ask yourself, why am I not able to execute on this? So if it is, I’m going to eat a healthy breakfast every day.

Keri Glassman [00:56:31]:

Great.

Michelle [00:56:32]:

But you open your fridge and you get a nauseated feeling because also if there’s like old food in there, you’re not going to want it. Whatever is most convenient for our brain, we’re most likely going to pick. So if it’s like I always think of like from an evolutionary biology perspective because my head’s always in the evolutionary biology gutter. Like if there was a tiny bunny.

Keri Glassman [00:56:49]:

Rabbit, I mean, whose isn’t right? Isn’t your brain in the evolutionary biology gutter too listener like?

Michelle [00:56:57]:

Classic. Right? Classic. Exactly. That’s not a real sentence that I said and I know that.

Keri Glassman [00:57:01]:

No, I love that. That’s what makes you amazing, Michelle. And I love it. I am here for it all.

Michelle [00:57:07]:

You’re like, who amongst us has not had their head in the evolutionary biology gutter? Who amongst us doesn’t have a clean fridge and has their head in evolutionary but I think about if we as our ancestors very well may have, if there was a tiny bunny rabbit in front of us or there was a lion 10 miles away, which one are we going to eat? You’re just going to eat what’s convenient easy for you to catch. That’s how our brains work. And because like we talked about in the beginning of this conversation, to pull us all together, the systems at play when it comes to our food system, when it comes to our lifestyles, especially in America and especially in New York, are not here for our health. They’re here for someone else’s capital benefit and their bottom line, right?

Keri Glassman [00:57:48]:

Absolutely.

Michelle [00:57:48]:

So if we do not organize our environment in a way that is supportive and easy for us, the baseline that we’re going to go into is illness. And that’s the truth. And the hopeful message is something as silly as cleaning out your fridge. And even if the food is fresh, donate it. Then you’re creating community. You’re hitting two pillars every single action you take. You could be targeting more than one pillar too. Just find actions I think is the message that you’re sending.

Keri Glassman [00:58:15]:

And I also like what you just said is something as simple as cleaning out your fridge. You don’t have to necessarily spend a lot of money. Sometimes I think that people think, oh, if I do all of these things, I have to go get a lymphatic drainage massage and I have to do this and I have to do this, and you don’t have to do all of those things in order to make a great impact in each of these pillars. Like you said, just cleaning out your fridge could be the thing that you do in the live consciously pillar. Just doing breath work could be what you do for your stress less pillar. None of these things have to cost anything or take a lot of time. They don’t have to be financially inaccessible and they don’t have to be time intensive either. And that’s not to say I don’t want to say that there are many things out there, many wellness things and many wellness things that I love, that do take right. That we love, that are more expensive and aren’t necessarily accessible. Right? So I do want to acknowledge that I’m not saying that every single thing is equally accessible but there are many things for each of these pillars that are very accessible time and money wise.

Michelle [00:59:28]:

There’s two pieces of the financially inaccessible for many and very fun things that I want to talk about. One is that something we bond about all the time is our aura rings. And not like this is not an ad for aura but it’s so interesting because for me, seeing how much sleep I get does not make me feel better or worse during the day. It just makes me feel connected to my body whereby many people because this is a wearable ring that lets you know, much like those old Fitbit watches they brings now, but it also lets you know your body temperature and all those things. For many people, I think it can be triggering and unhelpful to have something like that and these wearables but I think for me it just gives me solace that my body gets to tell me something that I can see visually. And actually our sponsor for this episode is very which is a CGM, a continuous glucose monitor which again, you can do things as simple as let me take action towards my carbohydrate intake and eating more whole unprocessed carbs. Or if you want to just start somewhere, just see how different to see internally how different foods affect you. You can go as high up as one of these trackers or you can go as low as just watching how you feel after you eat carbohydrates but you can get really specific and have a lot of fun. And that’s not eating disorder either. It’s fun. Have fun. Yeah, I love it.

Keri Glassman [01:00:54]:

Not only can it be really fun for people, but it’s also for the right person. It’s super empowering. It’s super empowering. And if you can do it and you do have access to that, there are many tools out there that are not only educational, they’re empowering. And like you said, they’re fun and they’re really useful for people. So it’s also knowing who you are if you’re working with people, it’s knowing who the client is that you’re working with and what might work for them. Right. And it’s funny that you said that about the aura ring. So yeah, I know people certainly that the aura ring is very triggering to them. They don’t want to know. It makes them more stressed, right. Many people I personally I love it. I love it, I love it, I love it. I love tracking my sleep. Sleep is probably my worst pillar of nutritious life. I’ve always had a tough time with it, especially over the past one to two years. It’s really gotten worse for me, which I think is that perimenopause stage of life. It’s been affecting me too, which is a whole other conversation. So about a year ago I said I am going to really go hard on this pillar and really focus in on it and work on it. And so that’s when I think it was about a year ago when I got my aura ring, finally made the investment in my aura ring. But you know what, I found it’s funny how you said it makes you feel connected to your body. What I feel about it for me is I wake up in the middle of the night a lot, many different times. And I’ve gotten better with that as I’ve pushed off having my caffeine in the morning. But I do wake up in the middle of the night a lot and I would often wake up in the morning. I was up so much last night, I feel terrible because I knew I was up a lot. So I’d say to myself, I feel so crappy today, I’m so tired. And it was like this. I don’t even know how I actually felt, but because I knew I was up, I would feel worse, right? So what I love about my aura ring is that I realized I would look and I’d say, oh yeah, I was up at 130 and then I was up at 330 and I was up at 415. But my total sleep and my total deep sleep, I still got a 93 for the night or I got an 87 for the night and I still got adequate amount. I still had 7 hours and 20 minutes of sleep. So I think that actually made me feel not only makes me feel good, but then what I noticed was when I’d wake up in the middle of the night, I would be more relaxed and not stressed about falling back asleep because I’d know it’s okay if I’m up. I’m still going to end up with an overall good score. So it almost like reduced the anxiety in the middle of the night when I woke up about I got to go back to sleep. So that’s just again, that’s my personal experience. I’ve had many clients have also lots of good experiences with it and then again also people that find it triggering. You have to know yourself and you have to know what works for you and what doesn’t work for you. It’s kind of like the scale, right? For some people it’s great. For some people it’s a terrible tool.

Michelle [01:03:40]:

And this is the same for any nutrition tool. Same exact thing for continuous glucose monitors too. It’s so interesting. I can eat something like gluten free bread and it will have no impact on my blood sugar, but I eat a bunch of blueberries and it does it really depends on the person. Everyone metabolizes things totally differently. So for me, it gives me that feedback. But once I remember this, at one point I said to myself, if you get to the point where you don’t want to eat blueberries, take the sensor off. But when you go into it and you say, this is data, this is feedback, and it’s critical data and feedback, I think that these tools can be used really well and incorporated again within that eight pillar model. So just knowing what you need and what tool you need and how you react to these tools is so important.

Keri Glassman [01:04:22]:

Absolutely. And the thing is, with CGMs too, what I always say about them is they can be incredibly powerful in terms of It’s information, and information can be power, but you have to know how to interpret that information. And that’s also why working with someone is really powerful when using a CGM. I do like people to work with someone when they’re using a CGM so that they don’t say, oh, I’m never eating blueberries again. They learn how to balance that meal versus taking out a healthy food out of their diet. So that’s my only thing with them is I want people to and some people can just wear them on their own.

Michelle [01:04:54]:

The actual companies like Barry will provide coaches too, which I love because they have such a good, interesting relationship with it. But all this to say you can do something as tiny as putting lemon in your water, even if you’re not sure why, and you just want to have hope and try something. You could do something as big as getting yourself a bigger investment, like a biohacking tool. And what’s always most important is the intention you put behind it. And I think the word that we’re using today is the hope that you put behind it. That every single action you take in your health, even if the action itself isn’t the healthy thing, but you decide to take it for a positive reason with positive intention and for hope for yourself, will bring you closer towards something. And that could be, again, eating healthier down the line, even though you don’t draw the conclusion. It could be feeling less anxiety, whatever it is. But it’s really about those actions.

Keri Glassman [01:05:40]:

Yeah. Hope and being open minded, right?

Michelle [01:05:43]:

I love the word open minded that used Keri, you’re my freaking favorite. You were my favorite before. Now you’re my double, triple favorite.

Keri Glassman [01:05:50]:

I hope you got you swim in.

Michelle [01:05:52]:

The gutter of evolutionary biology.

Keri Glassman [01:05:57]:

I was just going to say I’m going to go get in that gutter with you after we walk around the res 20 times.

Michelle [01:06:03]:

Yes. The reservoir which is like, the opposite of the gutter, by the way. I think Central Park is both of our most special, safe place. It’s my magical IST place in the entire world. It’s my Disney world.

Keri Glassman [01:06:13]:

Oh, I love it. I know.

Michelle [01:06:14]:

And you go every day. You guys want to find Keri stalker? She’s in the Central Park every morning at 05:00 a.m.. Yeah, I was going.

Keri Glassman [01:06:19]:

To say a lot earlier than most people, but yes, exactly.

Michelle [01:06:23]:

Don’t stalk Keri, please. I’m asking you nicely, Keri. Where can people find the amazing you? Besides, on every single major news network, where can people find the amazing Keri Glassman? How can they learn from you?

Keri Glassman [01:06:35]:

So you can go to can go to and you can actually go to Forward slash BNC. You can actually, by the way, Michelle, you could take that out if you want and use your own code. So I’ll just start that again. You can go to Nutritiouslife.com, to my website, to learn all kinds of things about the eight pillars, but you can also find me on Instagram, at Keri Glassman’s, my personal, at Nutritious Life, and at the Nutritious Life Studio. So lots going on on. Then, you know, we’re on Facebook and Twitter, and it’s not Twitter anymore, x, whatever. So we’re everywhere. Go to our website, nutritiouslife.com, and you can find all the links to all the social feeds.

Michelle [01:07:14]:

And you’ll also see the link to my affiliate for Nutritious Life Studio, which is really a program for I think it was originally made for dietitians to learn about integrative nutrition, but it’s become for any kind of coach, right, who can actually learn how to be an integrative.

Keri Glassman [01:07:31]:

We have yeah, we have career changers, we have pharmacists, nurses, yoga instructors, dietitians. It’s an incredible six month well, of course, I’m a little biased, but it’s an incredible course and amazing, supportive community. It’s six months. Go at your own pace. Love to see you in the community. If you’re a listener of Michelle, you’re a friend of ours, too, and that’s exactly right.

Michelle [01:07:54]:

Get in the gutter with us. I can’t wait to chat again with you. Soon we’re going to hang up and then start planning our big Central Park day. You guys are going to find us there. Don’t I don’t know why I’m encouraging this talking. Don’t, guys, come on, message us instead. But, Keri, I cannot thank you enough for your ongoing wisdom and just one of the most generous of spirit and warmest people and most open minded I’ve ever met. So I have no shock. There’s no shock from me whatsoever. That was your guys. Thank you so much.

Keri Glassman [01:08:21]:

So great being here. Thank you for having me.